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New Idea against ...g6!! - Rudel - 08-20-2008 03:23 PM

Hey guys,
I think I've found something interesting to play against ...g6!

The long and short of it is that much of Black's play in the King's Indian Defense comes from the rickety nature of White's d4 pawn...so perhaps there is some way of making use of the extra stability of the e3 pawn after:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.c4 0-0 (...d5 transposes to the Sneaky Gruenfeld)

I have come up with the following interesting line:

5.Be2 (perhaps Nc3 is better, but this, at least, continues to make the gruenfeld unliked) d6 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.0-0 e5

This is "the" way of dealing with "e3" if you are a KID player. This is the idea Watson gives in his Mastering the opening's book, and it is what we see in those games I posted by Norowitz (though he fianchettoed Bb2 instead of using his time to play out his other pieces)

And now: 8.Qc2!?

In the 'normal' KID variations, this is pretty silly since Black will just play ...exd4, clearing the diagonal for his Bishop, but now that White could play exd4 in response, this exchange would be rather bad for Black.

So what does Black do? White is threatening to exchange and then play Rd1 with a very comfortable position.

Practice has seen two options here: 8...c6, which you would probably not see in class play, and 8...Re8.

A likely line is 8...Re8 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 dxe5 11.Re1 Qe7 12. Nd5! Nxd5 13.cxd5 e4 14.Bd2 Qg5! 15.Bc3 Bh3 16.g3 and i don't think Black can make any headway. (e.g. 16...Bf8 17.Qb3 b6 18.Rc1 Bd6 19.Bb4)

8...c6 gives Black an extra escape route for the Queen and stops d5, but it weakens the d6 square, which currently has no protection at all. 9.b4, in addition to generally gaining space, this move removes the c5 square from the Knight on d7.
After 9...exd4 10.exd4 Nb6 11.Re1 it appears White's pieces have slight more active posts.

What do you think?


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - Rudel - 08-21-2008 02:28 AM

I should probably have mentioned that this line is not really a C-Z at all...rather far from it!

It is, however, an interesting version of the "e3 KID" [which doesn't even get its own ECO] that fits into our move order, allows us to meet the Gruenfeld with the same line as the one used against the Snkeay Gruenfeld, and seems like it does not give Black a lot of play [or many options.]

Black's position looks pretty boxed up to me.

I'm going to try it in some skittles games.
-David


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - Rudel - 08-23-2008 04:33 PM

Rudel Wrote:I should probably have mentioned that this line is not really a C-Z at all...rather far from it!

It is, however, an interesting version of the "e3 KID" [which doesn't even get its own ECO] that fits into our move order, allows us to meet the Gruenfeld with the same line as the one used against the Snkeay Gruenfeld, and seems like it does not give Black a lot of play [or many options.]

Black's position looks pretty boxed up to me.

I'm going to try it in some skittles games.
-David

I have found 80 "interesting" games with this variation (often by transposition) and you can take a look at the Special KID Line Database

By "interesting" I mean "games where the two people were within 100 ELO of one another OR where White did better than expected [e.g., down 150 points but won the game.]


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - DEiler - 09-12-2008 12:32 PM

I looked at your suggestion against ...g6.
Two questions.
1] After 16.g3 you give 16...Bf8 17.Qb3 etc. What is wrong with 16...Qxd5?
2] You recommend 11.Re1 but what do you think of 11.Rd1 Qe7 12.Nd5 Nxd5 13.cxd5 e4 14.Bd2 Qd6 15.Bc3 Bd7 16.Rac1 Bxc3 17.Qxc3 Rac8. I'm not sure where I got this line of play. It may have been in a note from a game or some analysis from Fritz. I have it in my database with a slight edge to White.
What do you think?
DEiler


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - Rudel - 09-13-2008 02:38 AM

karibola Wrote:There seems to be some error in the HTML formatting of the special line database, as I can't access the games.

Hi Karibola, does this show up any better for you?

Are you using Firefox or IE or Safari?


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - Rudel - 09-18-2008 06:25 AM

DEiler Wrote:I looked at your suggestion against ...g6.
Two questions.
1] After 16.g3 you give 16...Bf8 17.Qb3 etc. What is wrong with 16...Qxd5?
2] You recommend 11.Re1 but what do you think of 11.Rd1 Qe7 12.Nd5 Nxd5 13.cxd5 e4 14.Bd2 Qd6 15.Bc3 Bd7 16.Rac1 Bxc3 17.Qxc3 Rac8. I'm not sure where I got this line of play. It may have been in a note from a game or some analysis from Fritz. I have it in my database with a slight edge to White.
What do you think?
DEiler

Haha, I think I actually wrote "11.Re1" when I meant "11.Rd1" [which is why the Queen has to get off the d-file..
This also answers your first question, since in my mind there is a rook on d1, so Qxd5 is not so good. Wink

I'll look into the rest of this later.


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - bkahuna - 09-18-2008 11:23 AM

Rudel Wrote:Hey guys,
I think I've found something interesting to play against ...g6!

The long and short of it is that much of Black's play in the King's Indian Defense comes from the rickety nature of White's d4 pawn...so perhaps there is some way of making use of the extra stability of the e3 pawn after:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.c4 0-0 (...d5 transposes to the Sneaky Gruenfeld)

I have come up with the following interesting line:

5.Be2 (perhaps Nc3 is better, but this, at least, continues to make the gruenfeld unliked) d6 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.0-0 e5

This is "the" way of dealing with "e3" if you are a KID player. This is the idea Watson gives in his Mastering the opening's book, and it is what we see in those games I posted by Norowitz (though he fianchettoed Bb2 instead of using his time to play out his other pieces)

And now: 8.Qc2!?

In the 'normal' KID variations, this is pretty silly since Black will just play ...exd4, clearing the diagonal for his Bishop, but now that White could play exd4 in response, this exchange would be rather bad for Black.

So what does Black do? White is threatening to exchange and then play Rd1 with a very comfortable position.

Practice has seen two options here: 8...c6, which you would probably not see in class play, and 8...Re8.

A likely line is 8...Re8 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 dxe5 11.Re1 Qe7 12. Nd5! Nxd5 13.cxd5 e4 14.Bd2 Qg5! 15.Bc3 Bh3 16.g3 and i don't think Black can make any headway. (e.g. 16...Bf8 17.Qb3 b6 18.Rc1 Bd6 19.Bb4)

8...c6 gives Black an extra escape route for the Queen and stops d5, but it weakens the d6 square, which currently has no protection at all. 9.b4, in addition to generally gaining space, this move removes the c5 square from the Knight on d7.
After 9...exd4 10.exd4 Nb6 11.Re1 it appears White's pieces have slight more active posts.

What do you think?


Dave- I think your idea is very nice. This looks like another one of those good "reverse opening" ideas you have been discovering. The position is a reversed KIA against a French set-up, with White a tempo up. 8.Qc2 is not the only possible way to play the position either after 7.___,e5 White could continue with 8.b4 continuing with in the reversed French theme (as you mention with 8.___,c6). But your 8.Qc2 is much simplier. After 8.Qc2,Re8 9.de5, de5 is probably the way for Black to play. Then 10.e4 is another transposition opening, this time a KID ( ECO code E61). My database shows Black has scored very well in this position. However, White has been usually the weaker player and did not play the position correctly. Fritz likes White and so do I (once Fritz showed me how it should be played!).


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - Rudel - 09-18-2008 12:53 PM

Thanks!
Not being an e4 player, I never, ever, ever face the French [unless people try to get there by transposition]...so I didn't recognize this as a reversed KIA+French.


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - Glenn_Snow - 11-30-2008 08:59 AM

I rather like the reversed French setups for White but in my experience Black is much more likely to change gears and play for a ...c5 setup instead of ...e5. This was recommended by Gallagher in his "Play the King's Indian" repertoire book.


RE: New Idea against ...g6!! - bkahuna - 11-30-2008 10:02 AM

Glenn- I agree that with Gallagher, the c5 idea is better than e5. This is the reason I do not play as Dave proposes against the KID. Looking at the data bases again, Black is performing well with c5.

Dave- Another challenge for you.

Best- John