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knightlynews · 07-14-2009, 12:48 PM

in the main line c-z, 8.Ne-5 is the move following 7.....O-O,
however if black delays castling and plays 7...Qc7, 8.Ne5 can't be played because of 8...... Nb4, which is not considered a threat in the first line but is a threat here.
could someone please explain.
thank you

***Rudel*** · 07-14-2009, 02:00 PM

Hi there,
If you have a copy of Zuke 'Em, I would direct you to section 4 of chapter 4, which focuses on what happens if Black delays castling as you mention. It discusses in particular the various possibilities after 8.c4 depending on which pawns get exchanged.

knightlynews · 07-14-2009, 08:33 PM

Rudel Wrote:Hi there,
If you have a copy of Zuke 'Em, I would direct you to section 4 of chapter 4, which focuses on what happens if Black delays castling as you mention. It discusses in particular the various possibilities after 8.c4 depending on which pawns get exchanged.

knightlynews · 07-14-2009, 08:37 PM

My question comes from reading chapter 4! My point is that you recommend 8. c4 when black delays castling, as you say white can't play 8.Ne5 in this line as he can when black doesn't delay castling. You say this is because black can play 8.... Nb4 but I'm not clear why this is more of a threat than it was in the line where black castles

***Rudel*** · 07-14-2009, 11:30 PM

Ah,
Thanks for the clarification. I apologize for misreading your first post.

8...Nb4 is a far more serious threat after Black has already put his queen on c7 because the Knight on b4 now not only hits the Bishop on d3 but also there is double pressure on the c2-pawn.

Hmm...looking back at what I wrote here, I actually have no clue what I might have been referring to. 8.Ne5 is not even possible (really) after 7...Qc7 because Black has three pieces on the e5 square. That also does not make much sense given the text around it. In the book I say "Black is threatening ...e5 because 8.Ne5!? can be met with 8...Nb4")

When you think about it, that English sentence just makes no sense. The point of "threatening" ...e5 is that Black could do it if not stopped, so talking about 8.Ne5 afterward makes no sense.

Sorry, knightlynews, this just looks like a situation where something got switched around in the editing process. Since 8.Ne5 is not even something White should want to play (since Black has 3 pieces on e5), perhaps what I had in mind was 8.Nbd2?! cxd4 9.exd4 Nb4!

That is the closest thing I can think of to what I might have meant. Thanks so much for finding this bizarre verbiage.

knightlynews · 07-15-2009, 01:16 AM

Rudel Wrote:Ah,
Thanks for the clarification. I apologize for misreading your first post.

8...Nb4 is a far more serious threat after Black has already put his queen on c7 because the Knight on b4 now not only hits the Bishop on d3 but also there is double pressure on the c2-pawn.

Hmm...looking back at what I wrote here, I actually have no clue what I might have been referring to. 8.Ne5 is not even possible (really) after 7...Qc7 because Black has three pieces on the e5 square. That also does not make much sense given the text around it. In the book I say "Black is threatening ...e5 because 8.Ne5!? can be met with 8...Nb4")

When you think about it, that English sentence just makes no sense. The point of "threatening" ...e5 is that Black could do it if not stopped, so talking about 8.Ne5 afterward makes no sense.

Sorry, knightlynews, this just looks like a situation where something got switched around in the editing process. Since 8.Ne5 is not even something White should want to play (since Black has 3 pieces on e5), perhaps what I had in mind was 8.Nbd2?! cxd4 9.exd4 Nb4!

That is the closest thing I can think of to what I might have meant. Thanks so much for finding this bizarre verbiage.

***Rudel*** · 07-15-2009, 04:08 AM

Hey KN,
Thanks again for finding this, was there something else you were going to post? I just see a quote of my earlier post without any new message.

knightlynews · 07-15-2009, 04:38 AM

no just thank you

Globulon · 07-18-2009, 08:48 AM

I'm not so great at chess but here I would like to take a shot at interpretation. At the least the reply should be instructive.

Perhaps you were suggesting that black is threatening to push the pawn on e6 to e5. This is a threat because white will not be able to move his knight to e5 which would have blocked black from his threatened pawn push.

Black need not worry about taking a piece away from attacking the newly occupied (by white) e5 square because the bishop and queen are lined up on that square nicely, and so as you point out above, the black knight to b4 move is more threatening.

I'm guessing that the black pawn to e5 is dangerous in the first place because it puts double pressure on the white d4 pawn and takes control of the center. It also threatens a further push to e4.

I will be quite interested to see the reply.

***Rudel*** · 07-20-2009, 03:30 AM

Hi Globulon,
I don't think there is any saving the original text. The fundamental problem for any effort at making the original version okay is that I say "8.Ne5?! can be met by 8...Nb4!" when in reality 8.Ne5? should just be met by 8...Nxe5 [essentially winning a pawn.]

Thanks for trying to make sense of the original...but I think I'm just going to have to the blame for writing something that makes no sense. Smile