Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

***Rudel*** · 02-18-2010, 03:29 PM

I'm sticking to my earlier claim that 7.e4! is good for White...how do you see Black proceeding?

Mauro · 02-19-2010, 10:10 AM

I think that after 7.e4 black has not many good options, but one safe line which gives him an early full equality (basically suggested by Fritz):

7.e4 cxd4 8.exd5 e5 (black is already equal and I personally don't like to play against black center) 9.Cc4 Dc7 equal

Which white play do you see now? It seems that black can play 0-0, Te8, eventually Cb6, opening the bishop and attacking the c4 square.

7.c3 0-0 8.Te1 Dc7 9.e4 (standard colle) and it seems to me that white has at least a really small advantage and if black is not careful, attacking on the king side could come soon.

***Rudel*** · 02-20-2010, 04:00 AM

Mauro,
I hope you don't mind continuing this very interesting conversation. I certainly appreciate your concern in this line.

I agree that the line you gave [7.e4 cxd4 8.exd5 e5 9.Cc4 Dc7 (or 9.Nc4 Qc7 for English types)] is a perfectly reasonable continuation, but I don't think that it is equal and I don't think Black is going to be castling anytime soon after 10.Ch4!
[or 10.Nh4! for English types]

10...0-0? 11.Cf5 has to be a nightmare for Black while playing 10...Cb6 or 10...Cc5 opens the diagonal for White to get a very painful Ab5+ in, and all the while White has f4! ready with Te1 as a follow up.
For example:
10...Cc5 11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.Ab5+ and Black's King has to move or else White plays Cf5 (or maybe just f4 depending on what Black blocks with...or even b4!)
10...Cb6 11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.f4, and Black does not have time to castle because fxe4 comes with tempo against the Queen. 12...0-0? 13.Cf5! Axf5 14.fxe4

I hope this revives your enthusiasm for the line Wink

I'd be interested to see what Fritz sees here.

Mauro · 02-20-2010, 05:41 AM

(02-20-2010 04:00 AM)Rudel Wrote: Mauro,
I hope you don't mind continuing this very interesting conversation. I certainly appreciate your concern in this line.

I agree that the line you gave [7.e4 cxd4 8.exd5 e5 9.Cc4 Dc7 (or 9.Nc4 Qc7 for English types)] is a perfectly reasonable continuation, but I don't think that it is equal and I don't think Black is going to be castling anytime soon after 10.Ch4!
[or 10.Nh4! for English types]

10...0-0? 11.Cf5 has to be a nightmare for Black while playing 10...Cb6 or 10...Cc5 opens the diagonal for White to get a very painful Ab5+ in, and all the while White has f4! ready with Te1 as a follow up.
For example:
10...Cc5 11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.Ab5+ and Black's King has to move or else White plays Cf5 (or maybe just f4 depending on what Black blocks with...or even b4!)
10...Cb6 11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.f4, and Black does not have time to castle because fxe4 comes with tempo against the Queen. 12...0-0? 13.Cf5! Axf5 14.fxe4

I hope this revives your enthusiasm for the line I'd be interested to see what Fritz sees here.

I had tried to play 10.Ch4 but Fritz surprised me with the following line (then I realized that 10.Ch4 seems not do so much, black has not to castle and indeed the line can be tricky for white due to doubious pawn in g7 and black passed pawn in e4...). It must be said that it is not that obvious to play for black...

1.d4 d5 2.Cf3 Cf6 3.e3 e6 4.Ad3 Ad6 5.0-0 Cd7 6.Cd2 c5 7.e4 cxd4 8.exd5 e5 9.Cc4 Dc7 10.Ch4 Cb6
[10....g6 11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.Ah6 Cxd5 13.De2 Df6 14.Cf3 Cf4 15.Axf4 Dxf4 16.Cxe5 Cxe5 17.g3 Ag4 =]
11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.f4 e4 13.Ab5+ Ad7 14.Axd7 Dxd7 15.Dxd5 Cbxd5 16.De5+ Rf8 17.c4 Cb4 18.Dc5+ De7 19.Dxe7 Rxe7 20.Cf5+ Rd7
[20....Rf8 21.Td1 +-]21.Ae3
[21. Cxg7 -+ Cc3 22. Tb1 e3 -+; 21.a3 Cd3 22.Cxg7 Thc8 24.b3 b5 -+]21....Rc6 22.Ad2 Cd3 23.Cxg7 Thd8 24. Cf5 [24.Ac3 Ce8 25.Cf5 Cd6 =] Td7 25.b4 Ce8 26.a3 Cd6 =

***Rudel*** · 02-20-2010, 08:08 AM

(02-20-2010 05:41 AM)Mauro Wrote: 1.d4 d5 2.Cf3 Cf6 3.e3 e6 4.Ad3 Ad6 5.0-0 Cd7 6.Cd2 c5 7.e4 cxd4 8.exd5 e5 9.Cc4 Dc7 10.Ch4 Cb6
[10....g6 11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.Ah6 Cxd5 13.De2 Df6 14.Cf3 Cf4 15.Axf4 Dxf4 16.Cxe5 Cxe5 17.g3 Ag4 =]
11.Cxd6 Dxd6 12.f4 e4 13.Ab5+ Ad7 14.Axd7 Dxd7 15.Dxd5 Cbxd5 16.De5+ Rf8 17.c4 Cb4 18.Dc5+ De7 19.Dxe7 Rxe7 20.Cf5+ Rd7
[20....Rf8 21.Td1 +-]21.Ae3
[21. Cxg7 -+ Cc3 22. Tb1 e3 -+; 21.a3 Cd3 22.Cxg7 Thc8 24.b3 b5 -+]21....Rc6 22.Ad2 Cd3 23.Cxg7 Thd8 24. Cf5 [24.Ac3 Ce8 25.Cf5 Cd6 =] Td7 25.b4 Ce8 26.a3 Cd6 =

I'm not convinced that the g7-pawn is as problematic as you claim. You claim that after 22.Tb1 e3, Black is winning [-+], but I don't see it. What has Fritz got up his sleeve after a simple 23.Tf3 ?

Also, White does not have to play 16.De5+, he could opt to play 16.Ad2 (taking away the b4 square) and plan c4 followed by a Queen exchange and the better endgame.

Finally, regarding the 10...g6 option, I just cannot believe Black is okay here. I don't think De2 is the best way for White to press the attack, since it allows ...Cf4 to come with too much bite. Given how many pieces are on the d-file (and the Queen is currently undefended on d6), I think 13.Te1 is much better than 13.De2 in that line. White has a lot of pressure down the d-file [with Cf3 and, perhaps, c3 coming soon].

Mauro · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2010 12:35 PM by Mauro.)

many thanks david for your analysis. I realized only now that I'm using the italian notation...sorry, now on I'll switch to english.

With 10....g6 I agree, I had just put one line which was not the best for white.

After 22....e3 the assessment -+ is actually too much, but I think that play is not clear. I had not done deep assessment of 23.Rf3, thinking simply that allowing 23....e2 would have given sufficient compensation to black.

Indeed black must stay more calm and play e2 maybe later.
23....Ng4 simply defending e3 and black seems ok. I am not saying that black is winning, but I cannot see neither clear winning for white, mainly due to black passed e pawn.

e.g.

24.h3 e2 25.Bd2 Rhd8 (X ray on white back) 26.hxg4 (or others) Kc6 opening the d file for the rook

bye

Sorry, I forgot to talk about 16.Bd2 instead of 16.Qe5...I had considered the following line:

16.Bd2 Rc8 17.c4 Ne7 18.Qxd7 Nxd7 the rook on c8 looks at c4 and if 19.b3 black seems solid with 19...f5

thanks

***Rudel*** · 02-20-2010, 01:12 PM

(02-20-2010 11:46 AM)Mauro Wrote: Indeed black must stay more calm and play e2 maybe later.
23....Ng4 simply defending e3 and black seems ok. I am not saying that black is winning, but I cannot see neither clear winning for white, mainly due to black passed e pawn.

e.g.

24.h3 e2 25.Bd2 Rhd8 (X ray on white back) 26.hxg4 (or others) Kc6 opening the d file for the rook

bye
Sorry, I forgot to talk about 16.Bd2 instead of 16.Qe5...I had considered the following line:

16.Bd2 Rc8 17.c4 Ne7 18.Qxd7 Nxd7 the rook on c8 looks at c4 and if 19.b3 black seems solid with 19...f5
thanks

Hi again,
I think the line you give [ending with 26.hxg4 Kc6 is reasonable, but the passed e-pawn does not really bother me since Black is just going to get the exchange for pawn out of the deal. Black more or less has to cash in immediately with 27.Bc3 Rd1+ 28.Kf2 e1=Q 29.Bxe1 Rxb1 and then after 30.Bc3 Black's Rooks are not in great positions because he has no way of knocking the Bishop off the long diagonal without giving the exchange back by sacrificing on b2. White has an easier time attacking Black's pawns.

e.g. 30...Rd8 31.Nf5 Nb4 (anything else and White probably just plays Rh3) 32. Kg3 Nxa2 33.Bf6 and 33...Rd2 is the natural attacking move, but White appears to do very well after either 34.Ra3 or 34.Nd4+ in both lines White can afford to drop a couple pawns because of his counterplay against the Black King...essentially White gets an advantage because his pawns are farther up the board than Blacks.

34.Ra3 Nc1 35.Rxa7 Ne2+ 36.Kf3 Ng1+ 37.Ke4 Re1+ 38.Ne3 and Black can only play annoying moves for so long before he has to deal with either b4-b5+ White picking up some pawns from behind with Ra8, etc.

or
34.Nd4+ Kd6 35.Re3 and White will eventually play Re7 and start eating pawns. The problem for Black in this line is that he cannot safely double pawns to munch on the g-file because he runs out of room due to a later Bd4 (e.g. 35...Rg1 36.Nf5+ Kc6 37.Re7 R/2xg2+ 38.Kf3 Rxg4 39.Bg4), but if instead he takes on g2 without doubling up, he leaves the f4/g4 phalanx for White's King to move around (37...R/gxg2+ 38.Kh4)....in this line White should end up with the only passed pawn on the board, the f-pawn after f7 falls.

P.S. I agree that Black is solid if White goes with the Bd2 idea.